Cue & A: Composers Unplugged

Cue & A - Episode 6 - From Studio to Stage

• CUE & A • Season 1 • Episode 6

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Kevin & Cris discuss the process of taking your music from 'in the box' mockups to live orchestral recordings.




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About Cue & A: Composers Unplugged:
Kevin Riepl & Cris Velasco sit and chat about nothing and everything. The purpose of this podcast is to have conversations about all aspects of our experience in the music, film, tv and game industries. We hope to use this to answer some questions we often get asked through our websites and social media accounts. There is no surefire way to make it in these industries, so providing our humble opinions and sharing our experiences, we hope these videos will help others.




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SPEAKER_00

Cheers. Cheers. Episode six. QA, episode six. Yeah, it's hitting the start. Alright, so last time we ended the show with uh four potential topics. So I think we're gonna just start with the first one from studio to stage.

SPEAKER_01

Studio to stage. And that means where do you want to start from? Do you want to start from the end of writing or do you want to start from like as you're writing?

SPEAKER_00

Like what I'm usually writing up until sometimes the last second. Right. So there's a lot of prep during. I have to already have the machine. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Alright, so like for first thing, I mean, well, well, the way. I mean, it also depends on how you write. I know you write like this. I do my best to write like this, but you try to. I don't try to, but I write in a way to not limit problems for the orchestrator, but you try to break it up.

SPEAKER_00

I try to if I know it's going live. Okay, if I know it's gonna go live, what I do is unless it's like really needed, I don't write multiple things where I'm gonna have to do like multiple takes to write like oh the strings are playing like short stuff and long stuff like at the same time, right? I like to write as if it's going to if we're gonna go to a concert hall in the orchestra's gonna play it all at once. Right. Um the other way is I don't want to say it's cheating because the studio and live are total two different things, really. Uh, but I just like to do it that way. No, that makes sense. Like yeah, I always have high hopes that maybe it'll get performed at a concert somewhere, and then I'm like, I don't want to have to rearrange the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01

That's true. There's there's well, that's when you hire somebody. Um but yeah, so I mean I like to write, I mean, I've there's so many different ways to go about it. Uh like Chris was saying. Uh when I was this is I I had done this prior to when I worked with Lauren. Um I didn't like if I knew the score wasn't going to be recorded live, which almost all but one of my Warner Brothers animated movies got recorded live. No. None but one got recorded live. It's opposite what I said. So I only had one, one or two recorded live. Um it's it that all depended because this it was the same budget every time. And it's it honestly all depended on where I was financially in my life to be able to only take a percentage of that budget and put the rest towards a full recording.

SPEAKER_00

I uh I used to do that earlier in my career. I if there was no budget to record live, I was like, well, let me price it out and see if I can just do it. Yeah. Um, because I just wanted it so bad. And then I, you know, you want that as your calling card for your next gig. And if it's live, it's gonna sound that much better and better chance of getting the gig. But oh man, sometimes you know, you're working on something for months and then you spend like all of your money to get it recorded live. To go record it live. And I don't know that it's helped my career that much to that, but it's more of just like a passion project thing for yourself. Yeah, no, it is. Um so I can't I don't know if I recommend doing that or not.

SPEAKER_01

Or I I mean, like I I really wanted to do it on the last three, or at least the last Crisis on Infinite Earths film I did, because it was the final episode, a final, not final episode, final of the trilogy. And the last one I didn't know, but the last one I'd be working on with Warner Brothers. Um, and I just I just couldn't do it. Uh, you know, I needed every penny I got from that, you know. Yeah. I mean, if you're counting on that, Patreon. And they never, they never I asked so many times to increase the budget at, you know, at least by 10,000, just so I can do a string session, you know, and then have room for a mixer to mix in, or maybe I would even do it. I've mixed in live orchestra with my my samples before. Um, I don't necessarily need so much.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, the this all ties in perfectly with so much. Because you need like there's a lot of things that I don't do in my own studio that you might, like just like creating your own Pro Tool sessions. No, I don't know. I don't I that costs money. I orchestration, it's all the money thing. I never orchestrate my own stuff anymore. That's sometimes the biggest part of the budget, right?

SPEAKER_01

There is yeah, it's almost equal to not equal, it's very close to our fee, orchestrators. I mean, they make good money. I mean, uh and they and rightfully so. They they do just a phenomenal job with with their craft that you know composers do with their craft. Um, but even before the orchestrator, well, not not no, you can get an orchestrator going before you book book anything else. Uh but as far as Pro Tools, like I've done my Pro Tool sessions before. Uh I sometimes I've hired I had I've had to hire a music editor to set up my Pro Tools stuff. Because I'm I'm okay in Pro Tools to make simple edits and uh uh do like a soundtrack layout. But when it comes to prepping a Pro Tool session for recording, I'm not sure about the specifics about it. You know, I don't I don't know if each queue is a different Pro Tool session or do they do it linear in the I think each one is a different session.

SPEAKER_00

It's a session, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's right. Because every time they got a break.

SPEAKER_00

Like a whole bunch of stingers. Um, and then I try to keep that in one session because you don't want to do five seconds, ten seconds of music, and then be like, okay, you know, next queue. Like just knock them all out at once. I just do it and put like two to four bars silence between each one, right? And then just roll it all the way through.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so we were going, we were talking about how we how we write in our um in our DAWs. I like to write as even if I'm adding extra stuff or I'm doubling stuff or even doing shorts, recording shorts separately and longs. But I was I was gonna say, I got off on a tangent, was when I was working with Lauren, I used to do on my in the box scores, I used to sometimes have you know long strings and short strings playing at the same time of the same section. Um, obviously, you can't do that in a live uh live performance, but I did it because I knew I could do it and it sounded good. And yes, it's sort of like I guess cheating. But if they're all there, why not just do it? It'll sound good, you know, if you know it's staying in the box and it's not gonna go live. Now, when I started working with Lauren, it was the first time I started doing live sessions where we did separate sessions for longs and shorts, and you know, you just mix them in. So it's can be done. But the thing is you gotta consider is does your budget allow you to do it? Sometimes the budgets were so small that we didn't even record shorts. We left the shorts synth. Now we'll keep on saying shorts, we mean you know, like shorts. Shocato, spicato, in any, in any uh uh in any instrument, brass strings, uh oh, woodwinds.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, because it's usually like you'll have a um like an ostinato setup. So yeah, yeah, exactly. So you've got all the shorts going bum bum bada bum bum bum bada bum bum bum bada um bum bum bada um and then on top of that, you know, now here's instead of the choir or the brass tuning, you might have the strings also right over the right. And that's very thick sound that's um not a realistic purist orchestra.

SPEAKER_01

Right, because if you're doing it in the purest way, what you would do is you would move that movement of the strings into something else so the strings can do the lyrical line.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, as soon as I want the strings to take over, that's when I give that to the woodwinds. Woodwinds and a little bit of porn. Yeah. Um, to keep that motor going. And that's what's kind of fun about composing, is just like moving it around and not having how do I keep that energy and right, and it makes it an interesting piece. Yeah. So it's very kind of modern film scorey, or at least it was in like the kind of in the 2000s moving forward to do like as big an orchestra as possible, which is like everybody playing multiple lines, so you'd have to record everyone like numerous times.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Um I remember the score for uh I think it was Godzilla. Which one? Exactly. Uh The Splat. Oh, okay. That was the Splat, right? Who did he did?

SPEAKER_00

He came in for the Godzilla, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Wait, who? Yeah, yeah. So I think it was him. They were talking about the entire huge orchestra they had. It was enormous. It was huge, but when I listen back to it, I'm like, sounds like a normal size. I'm like, I don't get it.

SPEAKER_00

Does it sound bigger in the theater? You know, I think there's sometimes just this kind of um washout, like well, yeah, uh like a what do you call diminishing returns, sort of like like, oh, you know, eight horns sounds amazing. What if we had 16? Sometimes it's like horns that much cooler than eight.

SPEAKER_01

Like, I don't think so. No, it's and a lot of times it's I think it's a marketing thing. I mean, when I don't know what score it was when Hans did the like 15 kits. All the drummers. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I think that was uh like flexible. I just want to have fun with all these like world-class drums. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

When you got that's the thing, is when you have the budget, you can yeah. If you then you then you know you could waste everybody's time around as much as you want. Uh no, I mean money always equals fun, usually. I'm sure that sounded awesome, all those drummers playing, but when in the end it doesn't sound like you had 15 drummers, in my opinion. I mean, good for him for doing it and you know, doing something new and interesting. Um we're getting off. We're very no, no, we're not. Okay, so so pull the creation back in. So, okay, so we we write, so yeah, so that that when I work when I worked on films with Lauren, that was the first time I had the experience of actually recording shorts and longs together. Um so, but again, all of that depends on your budget. Like your entire live journey of recording live depends on the money you have to do it. Um and then sometimes the money is just enough where you can only do one section. And then you're a soloist, which still is on top, and that um it sounds great. Yeah, and then some scores, the budget is an afterthought where you get a string session, but it's such a minimal amount of time that you have to choose what pieces in the score are going to get those live elements, which kind of sucks, but the pieces that you the c the couple pieces you think are going to be the you know how how do you say the the key key cues of a soundtrack? Right.

SPEAKER_00

Or just like themes. Like are these important moments that like exactly where people are gonna be paying attention, yeah, and then you want that full sonic goodness, or but it's tough, right? Or is it your or does it become like you know your own, like, well, I like this cue better, so I'm gonna tell you my real and yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, but yeah, I mean, okay, so aside from budget, you still have to go through the same processes. All right, so before um here's how I start it.

SPEAKER_00

I really, really, really want to know before I start even working on a project if Suno's gonna be like am I going to record this live. Oh sorry. What'd you say? If Suno's gonna boot up.

SPEAKER_01

Sorry. Sorry, go. I didn't mean to offend you.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. You know my subscription is not. Oh man, those are your best pieces. Um really good. Go ahead. Um but I want to know straight away am I gonna record live or am I gonna record any of it live or all of it live, right? Because that's going to determine how I write. Of course. Yeah. And then also, if I if it's like, yes, we're gonna record live, then I need to know what's my budget. Because if I get to go record in London at Abbey Road, then I'll just write whatever the hell I want and they're gonna play it.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, right, yeah, yeah. It's gonna be amazing.

SPEAKER_00

But if I have a small amount of money and I have to go to an orchestra that's not as good, I want to know that going in too. So that I can write for their strengths.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and there are, I mean, not every every orchestra is not gonna be top-notch. I mean, it's not that we're saying they're bad, but you know, certain orchestras have more experience in certain styles of music. Um, like I remember, I don't remember the the score we did, but um I forget what orchestra it was. I guess it doesn't matter, but we went there and that we went through a couple of main a couple of themed cues, and the horns just were or the brass just wasn't poking through. Like it wasn't giving you that Hollywood sound. And I thought, oh, okay, this is this is what you get when you, you know, the budget's low or whatever. But then uh, you know, we were doing this for Lauren, and Lauren came in, he zoom zoomed in on a session, and uh tore you a new one. They didn't tore tear us a new one. He uh he didn't lean into the orchestra, but he he was like, You've got more. Like, give us everything you've got. And then they did another take, and I'm like, oh I'm like, okay, it's there. We just didn't know to call on it, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Also, I mean, brass is tough because if you just completely blow out their chops, then I hope you don't need them until the next day.

SPEAKER_01

That's the thing, is with separating brass section, brass sessions, and string sessions, is they gotta last a whole day, six hours of or however many sessions you have, with constantly playing, because they're you're only doing the brass parts. So you have to be cognizant of that when one booking your sessions, like it would be cool to have, I mean, it's annoying for them, but string three hours, brass three hours, and you know, if you're gonna record them separately, um, but then sometimes if you switch days, they come in two different days, you might not get the same players. Yeah, that's that's that's tough.

SPEAKER_00

I've also noticed when booking brass, especially I want them in the morning. I always thought, like, oh, afternoon is fine or evening is fine. But a lot of times they will have if you're if you've booked brass in the afternoon, they may have been recording somewhere else. Oh, yeah, performing somewhere else in the morning, and then they come to you already tired. Yeah, you don't want to be able to do that. And then you're not gonna get that quality.

SPEAKER_01

That's true, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, I've worked, I've done that enough times to where in a gotten burned where I know now, like, okay, it's talking to the contractor, like it's very important to me that I have the brass in the morning. I want my session to be their first session. And if they can't guarantee that, I'll say, well, find me a day when it works. Because um, because it's not worth it. That's true.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so there's that to take in, I mean, there's a lot of stuff to take into consideration. Okay, so before, well, as you're writing, you have to not before you're writing, yeah. You want to know how you need to be writing, for what ensemble, and and so forth. But after that, you need to find an orchestrator. Like if you're just starting out, you don't have an orchestrator. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Like you need to either word of mouth or And I used to do my own orchestrating early on. Like I had a couple live gigs, and I would do my own. But I didn't really I knew like orchestration from studying it in college, but not like real-world orchestration, which feels very different. Yes, yes. Um, also just the software. Like, I I mean, you know, the good orchestrators, they they get into Sibelius or whatever, and it's just everything and there's it's so fast, like just boom, yeah, shortcuts everywhere. And um, and I'd be like, how do I like it? Right.

SPEAKER_01

You would think we'd spend 20 minutes trying to figure out how do I get a freaking crescendo.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like I don't want I want this to be F sharp, not G flat. Like, how do I like what's the fast way to do that? And like every 10 minutes later, I'm like, oh my god, this is not worth it.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I mean, not to go off on a tangent, but the only time I use Sibelius, since I don't orchestrate my own stuff, is when I review scores. Like people like to review, I don't, I don't understand. Like, people like to review them in PDF and listen back to their score. I'm like, well, why not just ask for the Sibelius files, open them in Sibelius, and it plays it back for you, and you can just hear and see everything that's happening, you know, right there instead of trying to follow along with the PDF. I mean, that might be lazy, but I could see it right there. And if I need to change a note, or I can just adjust it to see if I'm hearing right, or it needs an you know, the note moved or whatever. But PDF is.

SPEAKER_00

You know, it's whatever, like snowstorm three, you know. Yeah, you know, like I don't know what that sounds like. So I'm like, okay, let's listen to my mock-up and then go and like go through Sibelius, play it back. Yeah, let me see the whole thing, let me and then and then I can hear things that might be different, either that the orchestrator has added, where it's like, oh, that's super cool. Like, wow, thanks for doing that. That's I like I would have never thought of that. Exactly. Or sometimes doing something where you're like, no, no, my intention was really, really this, and you've changed it, like go back to what I wanted. Right.

SPEAKER_01

And yeah, that that's that's that's good being on site with the orchestrator for that to get it nipped in the bud right there. Otherwise, you're going back to the side.

SPEAKER_00

There's plenty of people that review their scores almost like during the session, like it goes to the orchestrator, and then they trust them enough to have like not do the feedback part and then go to the session, and then you're hearing it the orchestrations for the first time. Yeah, that would be a good idea. I've I've done that on some cues. I have too, but I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, I don't mind like the orchestrator that I used through Lauren was uh Adam Price. And he proved to me that when I have sent him my stuff that I've I every time I looked it over, I'm like, this is excellent, this is excellent, you know, there's no changes. So there were a few times where I'm like, I trust you, do it. If you have an opinion on something, I trust you know how I write, you you know, I trust that you do it. And I haven't I sometimes I don't review it, and I'm like, well, just we'll we'll see it at the stage, and you know I it's it's never failed.

SPEAKER_00

So um yeah, I mean my my guy too, um never any issues on the stage usually. It's but I do like to review it ahead of time and let him know like I approve this cue. Yeah. Uh and then if there's something that's weird later, then it's like, well, I approved it. Yeah, that's on me. Um but it's going out of order a little bit, but um one thing I I've regretted doing or not doing during a session, I guess not doing, is not speaking up for something that that I hear that bothers me. Because sometimes you've done like maybe you run this this this part like a bunch of times, and you can tell after you do it so many times the orchestras they kind of get like they lose it and you just become robotic. They're just not just that, they're just like we think it sounded fine, like you're asking us to do it again, and you know, they're not hearing what I'm hearing, but sometimes they're also not there to please themselves, they're there as employees. You know, it's just it's a room full of people that have emotions.

SPEAKER_01

I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00

Um but sometimes we'll have been correcting something, but I'm also like, there's this other thing in there too, and I and I just never like be like, wait, stop. I have this other thing too because we're so focused on getting this one thing right. Right, right, right. And then we finally get that right, and and I don't want to make them play the game.

SPEAKER_01

If you go back to punch it in, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I just feel no, if it's like it's like, oh, I wanted a slur between these notes and you're playing it like disconnected. Nobody in the whole world knows but me because it's my intention.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And everybody will think that's just what I wanted, and it'll it'll sound fine. But I was just listening to something of mine today in the car while I was driving.

SPEAKER_01

We're hoping to hear that.

SPEAKER_00

And I heard this, I had forgotten all about it, and it was a violin solo, and it was it was supposed to be more connected, and it's very like oh, and you wanted to be and but that's the way it was written. And at the time, I think that it was like we had done too many things where I I now felt bad to bring it up. I'm like, oh, it'll be like fine, or the other thing is like, oh, we'll just fix it in the mix. Like that it is so hard to go back and fix things in the mix, and then especially when it's a playing technique, yeah. And it well, yeah, that's kind of impossible. Yeah, but or if something's like there and you go, I think we had it in another queue, like oh, and then it's not there. Yeah, I wish that I had the budgets to be able to like let's stop. We're gonna go through and make sure we have it. Yeah, and like we might have to go through 12 takes at one thing to say. And yeah, it's expensive to sit there and just like listen to stuff. But man, that's the thing I always regret is not speaking up for myself during a session. If I I start to feel sheepish about it, and and I don't want to be a dick, you know, I don't want to be that guy where they're like, oh, the composer has notes, but it's it's a little bit the composer. But you're the face of the music, if you're the face of the music to the client. So I'm trying to be better about that now.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so going back to hiring an orchestrator or just the orchestration process before that. Um what you need, I mean, I don't know if I'm sure you do. I don't know. Um, but you have to make your sessions as clean as possible.

SPEAKER_00

Um, I don't do that. You don't? No, well, I actually all my sessions I always quantize.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but sometimes you can quantize, but the end notes are overlapping, which a lot of times that's for the orchestrator.

SPEAKER_00

And then he's got like a team that does all the MIDI cleanup before it goes to him. Yeah because they can do it so fast, and I'm just and I'm still writing as cues are going out. Uh, and now I've gotten used to not doing it also, and I don't want to I don't do it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I try I try to clean it up as much as possible so it it is less work on their end. And it's not that much trouble. I mean, because I'm in there anyway. I have to export the MIDI, I have to print the click track, I have to You print the click? Oh yeah, you have to print the click for the Pro Tool sessions.

SPEAKER_00

No, you don't? Yes, you do. No, you don't. You should. No, you just have that's why you have somebody do the Pro Tool sessions for you that matches up to the MIDI, so that you can just use the Yuri click or whatever Pro Tools you use.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you always you always, for any reason, you always print the click. Always have it in your stems folder. Always. You don't know whose hands is gonna go into next. It's always good to have it. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'm sure it is, but I don't think I've done it.

SPEAKER_01

For for orchestra sessions, um you have to obviously stem out all your uh all your non-orchestral stuff. I mean, sometimes you can get away with a stereo mix of it, um, but at times on the stage you want to hear maybe certain things lowered or certain things raised as far as synths bass kit or whatever you're not recording live. So you don't like there that we I have two sets of stems when I export. I have stems that I export for the full theatrical mix, which is very granular, granular uh of everything. But then this the stems I export for live recording is very simple that you've broken down into synths.

SPEAKER_00

Uh see I do it also like very granular and I I don't um I don't merge stuff together for the sessions because I'm you give them everything? I don't want to do stems more than once. I just I hate doing stems.

SPEAKER_01

But do you but do you I mean this is a whole other conversation. But you can do stems in one pass. You don't have to sit there for each one.

SPEAKER_00

I know, but if I've well yes, if that's the way your template is set up. Yes. But mine is not set up that way. Fucked right now. In the I think we talked about this before, but I got my new computer and everything. And you didn't get a new template yet? No template. No. And oh my god, just starting a new queue today. You don't start off with a bare bones template, like uh uh like with the generic stuff in there. So everything I want I had to load in, and that sometimes makes me lazy too. Like if I'm like, oh, those violas should be tremoloin instead of legato, that's what I really want. But after I've loaded so many things in, sometimes I'll be like, ah, I just don't want to go looking for that.

SPEAKER_01

You know what you need to do with Cubase is you should, I mean, you need to do this. I mean, I don't do this because I have my template, which has everything in it. Um, but you you save track archives. Like you have uh whatever library, your main libraries, or whatever all your libraries, you set up violins one, it has everything you need, and then you select them all, save track archive. So that say there's uh 30 tracks in your violins ones. I don't think my cubase has that. Okay. That's funny. Uh, but that's a conversation for another. But yeah, you need to do a conversation for us. Yeah. Or you come over and you show me how to because or you just have a template with everything loaded. I know. I know, but what I'm saying is you have template with everything loaded. So then if you're in a queue, you go load tracks from uh I forgot what this the file menu name is. You can load tracks from another project. So that project opens, it says, Do you want to activate that project? No. You say no, and then no, I'm doing it wrong. But there's a way where you can import from another project. I know we went off on a side, but stage or whatever.

SPEAKER_00

But this is the shit you need to know as a professional composer. Well, you could tell me later, but I do have a guy that's gonna set up a guy template for me, and and he does all of the the cool shit, all the leveling and pre-mixes it and does all the adjustment for uh compensates for uh he does your gain staging for you. Just say yes. Yeah, okay. Yeah, he does all he does that okay.

SPEAKER_01

So, all right, so we were with prepping the MIDI and the session for the orchestrator, which you don't do. Um, I do, but you have somebody that does it, and then it's off to the orchestrator um while you're still writing. Now the or I don't know how orchestra our all orchestrators work differently. Um they rely on the MIDI information if there's a question. Like I know they bring the MIDI into Sibelius, um, and then they reference the the uh I we call it the two mix, the stereo mix.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um That's why I also don't like to uh I haven't used key switches in years and years. But and I know it's because of that. I I know most orchestrators now just they see weirdo bass notes and just know like that was key switch.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but still, but then they gotta guess or listen really hard at what it is. Yeah, you know, what the key switch is.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, I like everything and they're labeled. Same, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Each track has its own articulation. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Except for actually not like I'll often actually no, it's that's irrelevant. Never mind. Um I was gonna say something about ensemble patches, but I still orchestrate it in the sections and I just throw the ensemble patch in there, just a little beef in the mock-up. Um I don't like those. They don't like you either. All right, so all right, so that it's at the orchestrator. Now they're doing their thing. And you sit back and you um wait for stuff to come in and you review it. Um and at that point, I mean, during that whole problem, like things are happening all at once. Like you have to find an orchestra that is within your budget. Um, and there's plenty of orchestras out there, you know, European orchestras are very affordable. Um if it's a union gig, which is very rare these days.

SPEAKER_00

Um not all European. I wouldn't just say like European, I would say like Eastern European is a little more affordable. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like if you go like Bratislava's more Vienna's a little bit more expensive than Bratislava or Fames. I don't know where Fames is. Uh Fames, Bulgaria Bulgaria. Maybe. I think so. Anyway, they're another orchestra. And then, you know, London, or forget it. Um, but anyway, so you you have to find, and they're all on the on the internet, and you just contract, you contact the person head of contact that's on their site. You talk to them, you tell them your budget, you tell them your orchestra size, or or actually, you don't even tell them your budget. Sorry. This is how I've done it in the past. You I just say, I need this size orchestra for this many days. What's the cost? And then they give you a spreadsheet of everything that they offer. You know, they'll give you the per day or per uh session rate, they'll give you the the, you know, they'll itemize everything, and then they say if you want a camera crew, this and that, right, and you'll have that quote. And then you break down that if it doesn't fit in your budget. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Why are you shaking your head? Oh, because I um yeah, well, first of all, you that's another thing. You've like, okay, how do I I've got my I'm I've written my music, it's been orchestrated.

SPEAKER_01

Um part of your budget.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Now I have to find an orchestra. If you haven't done this before, where do you find an orchestra? Who do you talk to? Like, because you have to talk to the contractor. Yeah. And um, and some orchestras are great about responding. Um some of them just ghost you. Oh, really? Why? I don't know. I've never had one ghost in me. Dude, I put in a request to not at Abbey Road, but somewhere else in London recently asking for a quote. Never heard back. Is your face on your webpage? God, you're so mean today.

SPEAKER_01

It's so I I I've I mean I've never contacted it.

SPEAKER_00

And I don't contact because usually it's there's not like usually a lot of time. And also, oh my god, and another thing before we get too far is if you know you're going to record and you know what your budget is and you have an idea where you might want to record, book it as soon as possible. Like, figure out your date. What's your drop dead date for turning in an entire mix? Then start working backwards. Like, okay, I've got to get May 1st is when everything is due. Final, final mix, final everything. You're 100% done. And then you think, okay, how long does it take to mix it? And then go backwards. It's gonna take a week or it's gonna take two weeks or whatever. And then from there, be like, okay, the last day for me to record is this date, so that the Pro Tool sessions could be sent right to my mixer and he can get started the very next day. Right, the day that we're gonna get it. And so that's the last day that you can record and then move forward from there, and then figure out so anything before that time is fine to record. You just have to make sure that you've written the music in time. So that helps me. Right, yes, of course. How fast do I have to write? Because it could be like if you do it early enough, you're like, I've got you know, working back backwards gives you the the cutoff date of writing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Or cutoff date of orchestrating.

SPEAKER_00

Well, cutoff date of getting everything everything totally done to the orchestra. But also, at least some of the places in Eastern Europe that I've worked, like Czech Republic and uh Bratislava and uh and Budapest are the ones that I've mostly done. Uh but those guys are also usually in charge of uh booking the studio and the conductor and the engineer, yeah, and uh and a librarian and um stuff. Everybody that's going to be involved in recording your music. A lot of the Eastern European guys, it's kind of an all-in-one package. So they do it all. So you know I don't have to make any more phone calls. Right. But there's some people like Abbey Road, for example. Like you call the contractor, and she'll be like, okay, yes, we can book these people for this date. Do you already have confirmation at Abbey Road for that? And the first time I did this, I was like, Oh, I thought that was you. Yeah, I thought like I didn't know I had, and she's like, Oh no, no, we don't book the studio. You have to call the studio and get your date and lock that in. Then we can book players.

SPEAKER_01

I don't think I've ever actually hear at Capital when I recorded At Capital once. I had to do, I had to do both. The contractor didn't do the booking. No, so that was the only time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, in LA, I've I've had to do it never all in one. It's always like I book the studio, I book the players. Right. And it's you know, it's a lot of shuffling around because it's a whole thing. So make sure you've got a good contractor because you don't want to have to try to wrangle studio time and then yeah, it's uh yeah, you've got a you need a contractor that has players that they can just reach out, call to, say, you're booked from this to this date, like be there. Right, yeah. And then, but doing that and trying to get the studio locked in and get your engineer locked in. Yeah, they have to have like a house engineer you're gonna use, right? And a pro tools person at the same time, and it's just it's a lot of moving parts. And if it's your first time doing this, actually, if you've got something coming up, I totally drop a note on our video and I'm happy to reach out and like help as well.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, speaking of your the should I mention it or no? I don't know. What are you talking about? When I recorded here for my uh my solo, my solo album, my uh album that where I did the string session, that was through you. Cinema scoring, yeah. So did I book the studio there?

SPEAKER_00

Did you guys take care of that? I think we take we took care of it. We tried to do like it all in one. Right, yeah, okay, because it's annoying. It's I don't like it. I don't want to if you can just hand that off to somebody, that's like a whew. Of course, because it's very stressful spending all this money, and and you don't want to leave anything like to chance or like, did I remember to do this? Did I forget?

SPEAKER_01

Like, and the studio provided the their engineer and probe tools operator, so that was nice and convenient.

SPEAKER_00

Um then, you know, even for that, like we'll get there early, like the music is printed, we have that put out on the stands because somebody's gotta do that. Yeah. Um, and if you're looking at like a bunch of stands, I mean it could be like, okay, what uh where where are the oboes? Where are the bassoons? Where are the where's this? Where's that? Where does first violin become second violin becomes viola? You definitely need um you need somebody that just like has done it, or or else get there early and talk to the engineer and they'll know as well. See, I've only done all my scores I've recorded live have been okay, not all.

SPEAKER_01

I've only recorded one union score here. And I don't remember this was back in 2000 and I was one too many. What I think I'll probably get whacked for that saying that 2007, I think it was. Um recorded at Warner Brothers, but I don't remember if I hired the copyists or it came with the package. I forget who my contractor was.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, illustration and copying are also two separate.

SPEAKER_01

I know. That's why I'm thinking I I forgot who I used as a contract. Oh, it was the uh John John, he was a tuba player. He also was a John Van Houten. Um so I I don't, but I don't remember if he got me the or actually no, it was Chad. He played tuba and did copying. No, he he was a contractor. He didn't do copying. He was a contractor.

SPEAKER_00

And he just like Alan.

SPEAKER_01

He's got a dippin' dots franchise. This guy's everywhere. But uh, I don't it was so long ago, I I don't remember how how it how it all went down. Um but uh where were we in the lineage of uh the progress of the orchestrator booking?

SPEAKER_00

Um I feel like we have to keep this is kind of how I I was just thinking about this today uh while I was writing. Like sometimes I'll write a few extra bars and then I go, I need to hear it in context. So I started bar one and it's part of the whole thing through to hear it all again. But dude, I do that so many times, but sometimes I feel like that's this podcast where like, okay, pump the brakes, let's review what we've done. Let's go back to the beginning. Okay, you got the gig. We gotta review it all so that we know. But we want to keep it on track.

SPEAKER_01

We don't want to No, I know.

SPEAKER_00

So that's the thing. So let's very, very super fast, quick refresh.

SPEAKER_01

Not refresh, but where were we in the litigation?

SPEAKER_00

I know, but I just start at the beginning.

SPEAKER_01

I can't what we talked about, we already talked about hiring an orchestra then hiring a contractor. It's so hot in the air. I have the air on. God damn. Maybe you're just going through menopause. Maybe. If if if the AC remote worked, I could point that vent down. Felt something.

SPEAKER_00

Is that vent even moving? It is. Look at how slow it's moving. It's moving, but it's not even aiming down.

SPEAKER_01

It's just it's oscillating in a very short span. But I can't, dude. I'm gonna I'm gonna turn the air up or the fan up. And it's probably gonna come through on the mic, and I'll have to do some noise cancellation. Um, you're still wearing shoes over here. I think that's oh, is that what's cool? That's what's making you hot?

SPEAKER_00

I uh the shoes and the hat. I'm like, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01

All the you're so covered up today, showing way less skin than normal. I yes, I know. Being very conservative today, Chris. We have to rethink our relationship. Anyway, um so it's we're at the orchestra, we got the contractor part. Um and it's over by then, it's done, you're good. Um, book your uh you have to, before you record, you need to book your mixer. Um, unless you're a good producer and you can handle it all yourself.

SPEAKER_00

If you've never mixed live with any instruments, I would not recommend it.

SPEAKER_01

Hire somebody who's had experience. Um, again, this has got to fit within your budget. Um uh get them locked in. Um because at that point you know when you're recording. Soon as you book the recording date, that's when you lock in your mixer.

SPEAKER_00

Um so you you I sometimes try to book them. But how do you? How do you give them dates? Well, if I know I'm going to record in October. That's what I'm saying. If you have your dates. But if you even if you don't have it locked in, then I put my calls out and hey, I've got a big gig coming up that I need you to to mix. Gotta be a big gig. Hey, I have a gig coming up. No, it's a big gig. Sorry. If you're recording it live, come on. It's a it's a that's true.

SPEAKER_01

It's big.

SPEAKER_00

You know, there's no small gigs. They're all big gigs. Oh, they're all big gigs, especially with live orchestra. But I like to have people tell me, like, oh, I'm gonna be on vacation in October. Yeah, yeah. And then that'll sometimes make me rethink like Are you a professional? Like, well, when are you leaving? When are you leaving? Oh, I'm leaving October 5th. It's like, okay, so if I can record end of Timber. Right, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

If you really want this mixture, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, it's just a lot of moving pieces, and it gets easier, the more you do it for sure. But um, I can you get us a refill? I can. Shall we pause or do you want to you're gonna entertain the people? I am, I've got my joke of the day.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_00

No, I'm not gonna do it. Make sure you remember which one is mine.

SPEAKER_01

You're the right, because you're on the left side of the couch.

SPEAKER_00

On the right side of the couch.

SPEAKER_01

To us, not to the viewers. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Uh I'm gonna do a quick recap while Kevin is fetching the beverage. You got your cool gig. You're composing it. Before you start composing, you need to talk about are we doing this live? Uh if you are, do you have a smidge of a of knowledge about like what your budget is? If it's just soloists, like just do a you know, that's not as big of a deal. But if it's gonna a little chinsy. Um so know like what size you think you might be looking at, and then you'll know like, okay, well, I can get 30 strings here, or if I do it here, I can only get 20, or if I do it here, I can maybe get like a quartet, or thank you. Um and uh and then yeah, then that should in some way uh kind of guide your hand. How am I gonna write the score? What sort of a score is it gonna be? Is it am I gonna go crazy technical with it, or do I do I need to kind of not dumb it down, but just make it a little easier to play quickly? If like if you can get it on take two, that's gonna save you a ton of money compared to if it takes you know, take seven. Um and uh and that's just something you gotta plan for. And honestly, because that costs money. Yeah. All right, from there, get your orchestrator lined up and do that whole backwards thing. Find your contractor, find the studio, get your date picked out. From there, start working backwards. When do I need to mix? Get your mixer on the horn, find out their availability. Can you finish it by this date? Like, okay, yes. Like, when is uh uh and then you know the orchestrator, because you want them to be working, not when you finish the score, unless you've got so much time like ahead of you. Uh, but yeah, I never do or hardly ever do, so it's like I'm writing music as I get music approved. That goes straight to the orchestrator. And so they're working, that whole team is working while you're still composing, and then at the end you've you all finish like except usually.

SPEAKER_01

They're they're finished a lot later, not a lot later, but more closer to the finish line than you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, and that's I mean, that's just kind of the gig. It's it's yeah, it's high, it gets high stress when you're recording, for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, especially, I mean one thing I I I want to mention as far as film goes, um, because of your you you I mean you have your final day where everything needs to be delivered to the stage. Um, and you do the backward um thing with booking your the dates for the orchestra. Now, films are never finished. There's n hardly ever are you working on a final cut. What you'd work on is the recording cut. Like, because they'll just keep on, they'll keep on sending edits and edits and edits, and you have to get with the music super not music, but music editor who has contact with the editors um and you know the whole production team. You have to say, okay, this cut needs to be the recording cut because you have to start getting stuff to the state to the orchestrator. And so you wanna you want everybody on the same page as which can be the recording cut because the music editor is gonna be the one that has to do the changes if there's any more visual edits in the film.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like maybe this is too like what's it called? The baseball thing, like insider baseball. Is that a it's too insider? Is that no, is that what it's called? You know, you're like really in the weeds on something. What's that called? I don't know. Something baseball, like where you know. I'm sorry. That's a thing. I you're a baseball guy. I figured. I know, that's why it's not ringing a bell. Okay, anyways, but I think that that's like let's maybe not worry about so much of like wait a second getting cuts at no, because that's that's now that's but that's part of the process. I know, but maybe that's more an advanced one. Like that's like a random that's like another thing where we talk about film. This is now just a like get your music from your computer to the studio. Fine. I think you I think that you're going like too deep right away. This is leave a comment if that tidbit was a little bit informative. Uh insider baseball. I think that's what it's called. Okay. I don't know. You you run with that. All right.

SPEAKER_01

Sorry, I just felt like I had that was that's part of the process for us.

SPEAKER_00

I know, I know, but that um I mean that's specific to film and TV, really. More film, I think.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, definitely film, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's not really a game thing. But we're not talking about a game thing. We're talking about the whole process. I know, but that's just it's very specific. Okay, let's go. We're going outside.

SPEAKER_01

Come on. Going beyond the dumpster, you're gonna fight.

unknown

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00

All right. You ready? I've been doing a little uh kickboxing, by the way. Kicking the side of your bed is not kickboxing.

SPEAKER_01

Stubbing your toe. Hey, okay, fine. All right, so I'll edit that out. Don't edit it out.

SPEAKER_00

I'm just saying that I was kidding, I'm not in it. I know. All right, so so And then there's a few things when you're in the studio that um that you need in there too that might not be totally evident. And uh one is so you've got so you're there, you've got your your booth score that hopefully your orchestrator has, or your librarian.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, of course. There's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00

Um but the so the librarian is someone that's going to uh put the music out on stands, and they're gonna be on standby if there's a change, if there's like a wrong note somewhere, and they it sometimes you'll be working on a queue and it's like, oh no, something happened, there's a mess here. We're not we can't figure this out right away. We're gonna pick that cue up later, like after a break, move on. So then during a break, uh the orchestrator and the copyist can get to work on and the yeah, well they'll like fix it, and then the librarian will like take those changes, print out new scores, new music for everybody, put those back on the stage. Um, so it's it's another important role that you can do yourself too if you've got if you've got the means, but that's just something to think about that's nice to have uh your engineer, obviously, you're uh you and you don't really want your engineer to also be running Pro Tools. Yeah, you usually want two guys in the boot in the in the booth.

SPEAKER_01

Um but a lot a lot we like we were saying, uh a lot of the contractors that's all part of the the package. Like they'll have their engineers available for you, they'll have the pro tools. It's just part of the studio rental.

SPEAKER_00

It is like it comes with it, the all-in-one package is nice, which is yeah, super nice unless you have very specific people that you want, right?

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, um, and then something else that's often overlooked is a score supervisor. And for me personally, this is different for everybody, but I cannot listen to the score on my own in the booth and give notes that are gonna make me happy at the end. It's it's too much. And one of the things that's too much is just the emotion of sitting there hearing your music live. Like that Yeah, because a lot of times you're like, that's great, I'll take it. Because it sounds amazing, right? Exactly, yeah. And then so it'll be me, and then I always let my engineers know, especially if they've got great ears, um, like please, please, please, like give me feedback. If you heard something and I didn't, don't just say, Okay, like if I say like that sounded great, don't just I don't want a yes man, like tell me, like, well, I heard something at bar 42. Be like, oh dude, you just saved me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I I've had experience where a lot of the times the engineer hears it, or the Pro Tools guy hears it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I want everybody in the booth to be listening if possible. Yeah. Um, so then and some engineers just don't like to do it, or they those are the ones I've honestly stopped using.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But and then I I usually, especially if it's in town or not somewhere that's too far, if my orchestrator can travel with me, I bring him along as well because he knows the score probably better than I do. Um so I'm look I'm counting on his ears as well. And then I have an additional score supervisor that kind of sits behind us, and and for me, she is the same thing, like listening, um, and just like like very critically listening. And so like I get her the score, all the music beforehand, so she knows what it is going in and like understands what the score is supposed to sound like, so is like can quickly be like, oh, that that wasn't right, right?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, they're not there to suggest ideas or opinions or improvements, they're there to catch stuff that is missed by the average ear or the or someone that is like myself and you that are just enamored with the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00

And it's just it's just so much, like you're you're enamored, but also what I'm trying to do now because I know I've got usually two other sets of ears at least. I'm counting on one to pick up wrong notes, right? I'm counting on one to pick up um uh timing issues, right? And then if everyone's like not playing on a downbeat, like sometimes I just miss it. Uh, what I'm listening for personally is like overall musicality. And like, was this my vision? I just personally I cannot listen to the musicality and listen for wrong notes and listen for for timing issues.

SPEAKER_01

And um that's why I mean you know, you see pictures of recording booths for orchestra sessions, there's where so many people in the booth. I mean, some are spectators and some are you know part of the production, yeah, but a lot of people are there for the music and picking, you know, each has each is playing their role in to making sure the session is running smoothly, um, as an extra pair of ears, or making sure that the breaks are taken on time. Um but there's one thing I was gonna say with oh the conductor too.

SPEAKER_00

There's another pair of ears that with with um yeah, totally with and their uh their impression of the session is completely different from the what you hear in the booth, yeah. They're in the room, and in the room is a completely different experience from being in the booth and hearing it go through the speaker, processing, maybe some reverb. Um yeah, and you know, I always go out at least once once and check it out just because it's so cool, just the power of the orchestra kind of blows you away. But man, every time I do that, I go, I don't like how are you hearing all these things? How are you like balancing? Like it's just it's kind of like a wall of noise. Yeah, it's a lot. That's why one of the many reasons really that I don't do my own conducting is I just I could never hear the few times I've done it.

SPEAKER_01

I would love to eventually, but at the rate I'm going, um I just haven't been getting gigs with the budgets to do.

SPEAKER_00

You know, video game seems to be like the genre for always having the budget for live. Like uh, it's not always, but it seems like so many games. I would say that maybe I I mean, with all the games that are being made, I would say the majority are not live, actually. It just happens to be after all my years in the industry, yeah, okay. The projects that I'm getting happen to be live. Right.

SPEAKER_01

That's true. Um, yeah, because majority of my stuff lately, obviously, not obviously, but the budgets aren't there. Um but you know, it's just again, it's I could be if I didn't need the money from the project. I could get live every time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. If I didn't need to pay a mortgage, health insurance, food on the table. Man, I know if I win you know the billion dollar lottery, um I'm recording. Everything would be real. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Um and that that's basically, I mean, I know there's a lot more to it than we've pointed out, but I mean that's basically the um I I have to get up and get something because I I don't I want to recommend it. I haven't actually Are you leaving this studio? Right through it.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, oh. Is this your book?

SPEAKER_01

That's not mine, but I want to give the new props. What is it? And this is uh a book that was recommended to me by an intern that I had. Um it is I hope I shy Rosal. It's a book, it's called Preparing for Scoring Sessions, a guide for media composers and their teams. Well, show them the cover. So I was going to. I was actually gonna take a picture screenshot and put it up on the screen. So, and it literally goes into way more depth than we hit on. Um, it might even have different opinions. Um, I read through a little bit of it. Is it too much information? It is a lot of information, but it's good. It talks about oh, Pro Tool session prep. Oh. I mean part six already?

SPEAKER_00

The best the best way to learn this is to just do it. Do it and do it again and do it again and do it again, even if it's just a soloist. There are so many things you're gonna learn from just recording a cello or a violin or a flute or whatever. Um I wouldn't put that on the same level as prepping for orchestra. No, but that's still you're gonna learn a lot, and there's just the whole recording process is there are similarities.

SPEAKER_01

Very.

SPEAKER_00

They're both involve instruments. Uh and I think we're we covered that's an hour. Um, has it been an hour? Yeah, has it been an hour?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, and I know I think we stayed pretty good.

SPEAKER_00

We were pretty good today on top of it.

SPEAKER_01

Is there anything else you'd like to mention this week? Since we've had three weeks, three weeks without an episode.

SPEAKER_00

I know. Well, have you done anything interesting? You got sick, and then I went on a 11-day road trip up California. That was 11 days? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's right. That's what we discussed at at the end of our last or during our last episode.

SPEAKER_00

My ear. Oh, how's your ear? Still cracking. Much better, much, much better. Wow, it's been a while. But it's still not perfect, and I can um I can kind of hear that it's affecting my voice a little bit too.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe you need one of those things in Wrath of Khan where they heat they go in and maybe that'll clear it out.

SPEAKER_00

The bug that goes into your ear.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that comes into your ear. Dude, that messed me up.

SPEAKER_00

That scene. I'll I'll give it some thought. Probably not gonna put any bugs in my ear though.

SPEAKER_01

Oh well.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's right when you're sleeping, coming in with little tweezers and putting something on the side of your head. Um, I don't think I've had any more news. I'm just working on some stuff that I don't think I can talk about.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I'm looking for stuff that I wish I didn't wasn't allowed to talk about. Work has been slow in the film and TV for me. Um, but last week I did go to um my first time going to the BMI awards. Uh of course, last year I was invited because I won and I didn't go because I wanted to watch my boys' last high school baseball game. Dumb. No, no, I don't regret it. But when I went this year and I saw everybody going up for their awards, I'm like, oh, it would have been cool if I came last year. You should have done it.

SPEAKER_00

They would have understood.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but I wouldn't have to be a good one. And I would not change a thing about that ever. Anyway, I'm not a dad, so I'm just like, go to the awards. Yeah, exactly. Fuck your kids. Um, but uh that was fun, man. It was, I mean, obviously, it's all composers and some music executives and agents and stuff and PR people. Um, but it was a lot of fun. Like, and I think I mentioned this early on in our long-running podcast about when I was starting out, I didn't want to hang out with composers. Like, I wanted to hang out with, not hang out with, but make connections with film makers, yeah, you know, directors and producers, because those are the people that are gonna need composers. Right.

SPEAKER_00

That didn't pan out well for me. Um it certainly has. You would have never worked on all those Warner Brothers. That wasn't because of my connections with friends I made.

SPEAKER_01

That was well, okay, it's not from talking to other composers. No, but it's not from the way I in a way it was because I met I I made friends with the director, I scored a couple of his films, and the director or the producer of the Warner Brothers stuff hired me based on those scores. So it's it's not a one-off type of you know benefit. But anyway, so I always saw when I it's I I think I mentioned this, that when I was younger in the in my career that composers were other composers were adversaries. You know, like we're all going for the same thing. Um everybody's judgmental. Um and I never wanted to really. I had a few few friends that were composers, but my goal was not to hang out with composers, which is very shallow of me, because the later part of my career now everybody thinks that, you know, it's do they?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, well, I don't know anymore. I mean, every generation's different, but ours certainly uh I feel like we're launching to a whole new podcast here. Well, we'll let's give it away okay, all right. Um but I I I felt the same way. Um, like, oh, you don't want to be too close to these other guys because you know they're gonna stab you in the back or something or take a gig, or you would never, I mean, we still don't really do this, but like tell each other like what we're pitching for, because no, yeah, that's just that's a little bit bro code or something. Yeah, it's it's like oh really don't jinx it almost, you know. Oh yeah, no. Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't think that you know, if I told you like, oh, I'm pitching on this new, like it's it's some amazing Lord of the Rings game I've been wanting to do it, then you know, I I don't see you going to your H and be like, Hey, I heard there's this uh Lord of the Rings game. But there, you know, I don't know. But anyways, uh, there's so I was the same way, but I do have to give props to another composer that did help me out, actually, and he didn't have to, but I was on a panel with uh Will Roger years ago, and we were talking about our dream projects. Um, like what would you love, what IP would you love to work on? And I mentioned Star Wars, right? And you know, he used to be at LucasArts in-house a long, long time ago. Um, so he had his Star Wars experience, and now he's gone on and done like a bunch of other Star Wars stuff.

SPEAKER_01

That's fucking insane.

SPEAKER_00

Um But he was working on a game called Vader Immortal, yeah. Okay, and I Oh, he was on that? He was before you, and yes, I mean he was the composer for it, right? But he got super slammed with another project, and he told them this is what I understand is that he told them, like, I we need Help because I can't like I'm so slammed right now. And they're like, okay, great. Who do you think can take over for you? And he mentioned me because I had done, I had written a Star Wars demo that I that I recorded live, like on my own demo, actually.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it was purely a like, I'm gonna do this so I can pitch myself for Star Wars because I really, really wanted to work on fucking Star Wars. Um, so yeah, I wrote a piece, had it orchestrated, had it recorded live. Right. And and Will had heard it and he thought it was it was good. Right. And so he presented my name plus my demo to these guys, and they liked it. And then I took over Vader Immortal for him on on episode one, and then I went on to do episode two and three all by myself. Right. And like, holy crap, I got to I got to do Star Wars. And um and that was that would have never happened if I hadn't befriended Will. Right. And then he obviously did me a huge solid. So Will I've told you before, but thank you if you ever noticed.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, and I think I mean the older I've gotten in the in my career, is it's like I don't know if I feel less threatened that I don't mind. I mean, the camaraderie within the composer community is actually fucking awesome. Um we're all in the same boat. There's enough projects to go around, you know, not everybody's gonna be on the top projects, top series, top films.

SPEAKER_00

It's just and our our whole like Venn diagram like really overlaps with each other a lot, and that we have so many things in common. So why wouldn't you be friends with these?

SPEAKER_01

Right, exactly. And it you can just like you're like if you don't know a composer and you start talking, you immediately have, like you said, so much in common that you can become friends. I mean, obviously, everybody's got different personalities and stuff, so that comes into the equation. But it's like when I went to the BMI, I could just go up to anybody and and we we start talking. Or if I was introduced to somebody, you immediately start talking about. And it's funny, one one uh it was I think Greg knew him, uh introduced me to a guy, and the guy worked on a series that I wanted to pitch for, or I pitched for and didn't get. And he's like, I'm like, oh, what have you worked on? And he was like, Oh, this series, and I'm like, fuck it. I was like, I wanted that series. Umside by the dumpsters, but out of minutes. I didn't say it like that, but I was you know, I was happy for him that he he worked on that, and uh, and he kept on apologizing to me because I didn't get it. I'm like, dude, I'm like, it's fine. I'm like, it just wasn't in the cards, and but that's the type of people uh that I think is the composer computer community. We're all the same, we all are you know in touch with our you know emotions, what's that feelings, feelings, yeah. In in an you know, in a in a way that we can relate with each other very quickly. Um and it was great. It was uh BMI, there was just a whole shit ton of them to to gather and talk and um yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, we've pitched on the same thing uh numerous times, and well, I can think of two, and both of them you got, so no, no, yeah, no the one was uh the video game way back when. Yeah, and the other one was It was an animated teenage Ninja Turtles.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, you pitch that's right, because you had the connections with Nickelodeon. Right, but Warner Brothers put their fist down. This is because I worked with him on all my other Warner Brothers stuff.

SPEAKER_00

I'm pretty sure if I remember the story correctly. That's why you don't know. My demo was better. I never heard your demo. Oh, I I just uh listened to it the other day. I want to hear scrolling through my folders on my teenage mutant ninja turtles. I'm like, oh yeah. I didn't even have to write a demo. Yeah. Because all my stuff was in Have we pitched against each other where I won? I don't think so. Why do you say one? Well, if you win or you lose. No. You well, whatever.

SPEAKER_01

I want to hear your demo though. I want to hear. Okay. Anyways, we this. And now I'm gonna think I'm gonna think it's way better than what I fucking wrote, probably. It's it is. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00

Did you hear my score? No. No, I couldn't watch it after I didn't get it.

SPEAKER_01

You can say watch it, you can listen. Actually, it's there was no soundtrack release, and there's a lot of fans mad about that.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know, I can't even get it out. All right. Should we into this? I mean, I feel like now we can just hang out and talk about Ninja Turtles.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, but it's not necessarily fun for other people. So we don't need to talk about it. I mean, it's fun for us.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, oh, fun for other people that watch us discussing it. Oh, I think.

SPEAKER_00

This doesn't need to be podcasts anymore.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

All right, we'll pick up next time talking about something else, obviously.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we've got three more topics. Topics.

SPEAKER_01

And hopefully we we're gonna try not to have such a long break in between. Things got hectic. Um, just life. One of us are sick. Uh, yeah, so and none of our sponsors have come through. We've never really contacted them.

SPEAKER_00

So that's probably why, yeah, but I think you did you like you tag them though, right?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I tag, yeah, I tag them every week.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Heviosity, Real Crafter.

SPEAKER_01

But I'm going to I'm gonna I'm actually this week I'm going to reach out to a few and just to see if there's some not even sponsors, but like a partnership of some sort, you know, how how we can go about partnering up. And they're gonna look at our follower account and they're like, no, thanks. So spread the word, man. Yeah, you know, humble beginnings. Yeah, I know. It all starts like this way. It's like we're Steve Jobs in a garage.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. We're Lucas with, you know, some Legos and a and a dream.

SPEAKER_01

Oh God.

SPEAKER_00

All right. All right, thank you next time. Thanks for watching if you made it.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Thanks, guys.