Cue & A - Episode 1 - Introduction, Networking & Many Tangents.

This is our first video in what we hope will be a long standing series that will grow with time.
The purpose of this podcast is to have conversations about all aspects of our experience in the music, film, tv and game industries. We hope to use this to answer some questions we often get asked through our websites and social media accounts. There is no surefire way to make it in these industries, so providing our humble opinions and sharing our experiences, we hope these videos will help others.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:07

Okay, so my idea was we say what the what the podcast is gonna be about and then uh basically that's it. Okay. That's what I initially that's what I initially wanted the first video to be. But I this guy um up and coming composer emailed me in the beginning of the week with uh questions, a few questions. So I emailed him back. I'm like, hey, listen, I uh I emailed you. Do you need assistance? Um I emailed him back to I say, listen, I'm gonna start a podcast with a friend of mine. These would be excellent questions as a starting point to as a discussion. And I said, we don't have to mention any names, but the questions are good. Would you mind if we use the questions? And he said, go ahead. So I suppose that could be a good starting point for the podcast, which we have he asked you questions. Yeah, like like stuff about networking and getting credits, I get it, I get it. All that kind of stuff. So normally I would spend time either emailing back, um, but since we're starting up this podcast with the same type of idea of you know giving somewhat advice or assistance from our own experience to people. Man, I figured it'd be a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

I was supposed to respond to somebody that emailed me like that too. What was it? Don't say his name because I didn't I don't want to I can't even remember his name because it's been too long now. But no, I get those all the time. But um do you do you respond to I do sometimes well this guy this guy contacted me over over my website and I never got it.

SPEAKER_04 1:59

Or I might have got it and I might have you know just got busy and didn't see it, but then he contacted me over Instagram. I don't think um but then I got it and I got the questions, and I'm like, this is this would be a perfect jumping point for the podcast with no name. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

I thought of some uh name on the way over. Oh, that quick? Well, from my house to yours.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

What obviously, but we've had been talking about this podcast for months, if not.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

I had a lot of ideas, but I had one that I thought was kind of cool. Which is Um So when you were over at my house the other day, we talked about uh I forget what it was, but it was something had revision, and it was like final revision or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 2:40

Just one more revision.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Yeah, I can't something like that. But but I kind of like uh the word revision and I was thinking, what if it what if it we called it revisionists history?

SPEAKER_04 2:55

But I don't get that. I'm not smart enough to understand the if there is a double entendre there. Well revisionists history. That's that's that that means it's not accurate. Right. It's like we we're not gonna go down that that road of what people are doing today in today's world about rewriting history. Um we might if we're low on content. I was I I there is one I saw today with the help of uh good old AI, was QA. The word QA.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Oh that's clever.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

QA with Chris and Kevin or QA with uh or just what if you've got like Fonzi is part of the logo and it's QA. That'd be actually pretty cool, but then we'd have to probably uh send uh royalties to Henry and Winkle.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Okay, well we could all we could wear just leather jackets. Oh, that'd be cool. QA. And then when we sit down and we start, why don't we just go we look at each other and go, hey.

SPEAKER_04 4:08

That might be funny for like one episode. If there's more than one episode, we have no idea how long this is going to last. This might fall flat on its face. Um but I lost my train of thought of what I was gonna say. QA. There's gonna be a lot of that during these episodes of losing our train of thought. Um anyway, all right. Well, what I wanted to say was QA. QA school. I also like keep your composer.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

You said it wrong already. No, you said keep your composer. Yeah, it's keep your composure, I thought.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

I know, but we're composers.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Oh, I screwed it up. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 4:46

I let's hope there's more intelligent people out there to understand that if that's what we go with. I don't like it. Uh okay, so we're not going with that. Um what the oh, I was gonna explain that just to the three people that are watching right now, that we've known each other for what, 15 years, 16 years? Six 2010, 2009. Okay 2010 GDC.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Oh, yeah. Right. That's where I met you first. Yes. Um well, I cyber stalked you before that.

SPEAKER_04 5:20

We're not gonna talk about that. No, I'm going to.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Maybe not right now, but it's a boy.

SPEAKER_04 5:26

It may come up later on. Uh anyway, we hang out often, and every time we hang out, we obviously talk about business and the industry and uh amongst other things, life happenings. And so about a year ago, I thought, why not we why not just record us talking about the industry and about our experiences? Someone will watch it, someone will get something out of it. So we just finally pulled the pulled the trigger and are now doing it. And now we're afraid we won't have enough content to do it. So we put out, we're gonna put out the idea that all any of our viewers or listeners can leave comments on the uh on the video, this video, or on the wherever it's posted, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook. Um, and if you want any of your questions, you know, if you have any questions about our work, how we've done things, the industry, what we've encountered over the many years we've been doing it, you know, ask the questions in the comments, and that will be the topics of our episodes. Sometimes maybe we'll do one question. If we have time, we'll do you know how many however many questions we can fit in. That's a good idea, good way to do it, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Now, are we um so I don't really ever listen to podcasts. Me neither. And I watch a few like video things. I'll watch sections of that. Podcast is video now too, right? It's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

It's it's usually double. Like, I mean, or both. Like you'll they'll be on YouTube, and the audio, I believe, can be put up as well onto Apple Music.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Oh, okay. Well, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

I don't know how to do that. Um, but I like watching the people talk.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Yeah, I do too. Okay, so there's like people that have YouTube channels that I subscribe to, and uh and then they'll once or whenever you know the a video comes up and I see it. Is so is that what we're doing? Like this will live on YouTube.

SPEAKER_04 7:38

Yeah, essentially. Well, we're gonna create a a dedicated YouTube account for this podcast once we get a freaking name. Um and uh yeah, people will subscribe and we can link it, you know, on our account of social media accounts, and you know, hopefully we'll gather some listeners' viewers. And I I'm basically, I mean, I I I wanted I wanted to do this because I mean we're always talking about the stuff. I mean, a lot of times when we're in the privacy of our own homes, our our strong opinions get out of hands and allow a lot of things we can't do. There's a lot of stuff that shouldn't be said. Um not because they're bad, but you know, you don't want to I don't know how to say it, you need you don't want to piss people off if you've got no strong opinions about something.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Ground rules, there's can't talk about our wives. Unless it's good. Unless it's good.

SPEAKER_04 8:34

Well, there's only good talk. Why would there be bad talk about our wives?

SPEAKER_00 8:37

I wasn't actually talking about me, but um no, no, can't do that, can't um criticize things that we don't like that you don't like, like if you saw a movie or a TV show, like well, I don't do that. I hate it. I know, I don't like to do that either, but I hate it when I whenever I see composers or anyone in the industry saying like, oh, that that show sucked so bad, or whatever. Like that all those people that worked on that were potential like people that could have hired you at some point down the road. And if that opinion could speed up, yeah. I mean we're only gonna have three people watching, so it's not gonna affect us that bad. But if uh if one of those three people is like Spielberg, or just anybody that I mean like I know you don't like so much of my work is repeat customers, you know, people I've met over the years. Um and I would never diss somebody.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

If you don't like something, it's not because I mean, in the sense of the word, it's not because it's bad or it's not good. It's just that it doesn't fit what you like. And if you don't like it, it's because of your taste. It's not because it is bad. Uh sometimes it's just bad. Yeah, but some people might like there are some there's movies out there that are, you know, just for pure like popcorn movies. And some people hate them. Oh, I think it's I they're people I do too. And you don't have to think, you know, they're just fun movies, and some people blast them because the writing is bad or the story's got loopholes or you know, whatever. But I wouldn't go bashing it, you know. Maybe I'd say in private that that movie was no, I wouldn't. I would just I would just always say I didn't like it or it wasn't for me. Oh and yeah, no, I mean, you know, there's no reason to bash anything.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Anyway, so we're not gonna do that. No, no, we're um also we're not gonna gossip. Even if we've got something so juicy, so juicy about no, we won't do that.

SPEAKER_04 10:48

We won't do that. No, that's terrible. No, there's yeah, there's definitely respectable ways to go about this. And it's not I'm not saying like we're going to do what we have done over the years hanging out, because we, you know, we both think similarly about things, and we, you know, we say things and understand each other when we say things, we understand our sarcasm. If we say something bad or we know we don't really mean it, but if we take that same approach here, it's not gonna, it's not gonna bode well. It's you know, we have to not go full sarcastic.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Because once you go full sarcastic, that's gonna that's gonna get old fast on yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:34

So I mean they'll there will be sarcasm because I don't know how to operate without it. No, and apparently it's a sign of intelligence. That's what I say, that's what I hear you. High IQ. Yeah, yeah. Um so did you want to entertain this questions, these questions that I had that I got? Sure. All right, let's see. All right.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

How many are there?

SPEAKER_04 12:01

Uh let's do one and then see how we feel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I I think it was just one thing that encompasses others, but hold on. I am getting very warm. I'm trying to lower the AC. Let me know if you hear a beep. Where is it? There it is. Okay. Dee dee dee dee. Just make sure the question is a lot of sculptures in here. Look who's talking. Your st studio is your studio is just bigger, so they don't they look they're more spread out. I wasn't complaining. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Oh, I'm just saying. Anyway. As a fact, you have a lot of sculptures in here.

SPEAKER_04 12:57

Okay. I'll I'll just read the email because the email doesn't isn't specific. Okay. So I've been very interested in composition since I was very young. I don't know how old this person is, thanks to you and many other composers from my favorite media growing up. And recently I've started to try and really take it seriously. I think my first question that I'd like to ask is until I score my first paid project, what do you recommend that I do as an amateur composer that would help benefit my growth and connections? I want to be sure that I'm still improving and building myself in my career, even while I'm not actively writing. That's the first part of the question. Oh. There was a second part about specifically me and my journey. But we can talk about what he can do while the things he can do while not writing.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Um well, you should always be writing. Oh, I was just gonna say that. Maybe that's the name. Always be writing.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

I literally was gonna say it, but I didn't want to jinx it.

SPEAKER_04 14:09

That's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Always be writing. I like that.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

Is that it?

SPEAKER_00 14:15

I don't know. I mean, I like QA, honestly.

SPEAKER_04 14:16

I like QA.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Um maybe we should do a poll.

SPEAKER_04 14:24

Maybe. Let's get to the question, huh?

SPEAKER_00 14:28

When you're not writing when you're not writing, you should always be writing.

SPEAKER_04 14:31

Okay. I think uh maybe uh well I I don't know. Today's social media is way different than when I first was on social media, which was 2000 and don't age us something. Well, they have there people be watching this because we have some experience, and that some experience comes with time in the industry and age. Yeah, so I wouldn't be doing this podcast ten years ago. You know, I feel inadequate doing it now. You were working as a composer 10 years ago. Excuse me.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

You're much older than I am.

SPEAKER_04 15:15

You're an ass. Anyway, I still feel like I'm inadequate to answer questions because I'm not where I want to be in my career. But from where I came from, when people ask me questions, it puts perspective into how far I've come and how much I do know, even though there's so much more to learn, how far I've come in the industry being able to do this for a living, um, that I do have, you know, I do have stuff to offer. There are, you know, pointers on how to do things. But I'll say that there is no surefire way. There never was a surefire way to get to the next step. Everybody's different, every s situation is different. But okay, so let me get back to uh what to do when you're not writing. I what like I said, when I was back in 2000 and even you said not the datas, but I don't really give a crap. I'm just joking. 2010, 2009. I think I started on social media in 2008. And back then it was a little bit more Was that MySpace? No, no, no. This was that. This was what I think when Twitter first came about, and and I was on Facebook, and Twitter just started, I think. I don't forget what your Twitter was.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

I thought it was so dumb. I did too. Like you have how many characters, and like what do you have to say with like 30 characters, 70 whatever characters, and and I'm like, this is so dumb, this will never take off. Yeah, now look at it.

SPEAKER_04 16:46

But it's it seemed like there was more like you could you you were able to consolidate your the creative people and interact only with creative people. You didn't get a bunch of nonsense in your feed um at the time. So I was back then, I was able to, you know, sp just start up conversations and relationships and work my way into these circle of people.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

I know, but do you think because I know you were doing that with um you know other musicians, but like trying to get in with like directors and that was my main thing. Yeah, but did did that ever actually work?

SPEAKER_04 17:19

One one two no one. I think the one guy who I still work with today I I met via Twitter. So you're saying there's a chance, there's a chance, and I love working with him.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

I almost I think I have very rarely done that, but it almost felt like an invasion of privacy. And um, I mean, if I guess if they really didn't want messages, they wouldn't allow you to send them one.

SPEAKER_04 17:45

No, this wasn't even over DMs. This was straight on the surface talking back and forth when they were in conversation. Oh, and another one. Yeah, I mean, I thought you were you would just like if they were talking about a movie, not even their movie, or just something in general, you would join the conversation if you saw it. If you weren't following them, you would so you would join and just start up a back and forth, you know, however many people were in the conversation, and then you would possibly pursue that after, lay some groundwork, and then go in for the but I'll be honest here. When I first started, I was straight up just asking people if they need to do that.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

I see that now and it looks it's cheesy. Yeah, it definitely looks cheesy.

SPEAKER_04 18:26

Don't do that, don't do that. Um but but back then social media was a way to make contacts. Now it's a little bit harder now. Um well I don't use it as much now. I probably should continue to use it. Um I can't keep up. I I can't, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

And once I put something out, um I hate like monitoring, remarketing the same like thing. You know, you've got like a new project that comes out or a soundtrack or whatever, something cool happened and you want to talk about it. And then the ones that get traction are the ones that were you know, it's like you see these composers and and they they keep you gotta hammer that home, kind of if you want anybody to actually see it. Yeah, you gotta keep out the posting. It's a little bit like who boy.

SPEAKER_04 19:17

Yeah, you can kind of hope that one person sees it. You can put it on the table.

unknown 19:22

Uh okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:25

Um, you hope that you know it gains traction by people reposting. If if somebody likes it, they they repost it.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

You're getting a little off-subject, but the thing about posting also that um a couple times in my career I thought, okay, I'm gonna try to do this, and it's create super fans, because super fans are the ones that um that you want.

SPEAKER_04 19:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Well, how do you create super fans? I know that's the thing. Oh, oh, oh. And so, I mean, number one is that you've got to work to post in the first place. Yeah. And then number two is you have to be responsive. And so yeah, which I I I am I'm so bad at it.

SPEAKER_04 20:06

Oh, really? I'm so bad. I like interacting as much as I can if the time allows. Um, but I I mean, obviously, I think what helps is you know working on a project that also has legs of its own. You know, like in my like history of gaming when I was scoring games, uh I don't think I was as well what was what was Gears? Gears was 2006. I don't even think there was Twitter back then, like there was no other way to to like you I had to rely on you know PR or the or Epic speed.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Or real, yeah, CDs. Uh I just saw um so our mutual friend Chris Rickwood. Remember Chris? He um I texted him like yesterday for something, and then I saw the previous text that we had that was I don't know a while ago, but he found he was cleaning out some boxes or something, and he found an old demo CD that I gave to him back in probably my one of my very earliest GDCs, and you could see that that paper stick on the on the DV, on the CD, yeah. And it was like that's not quite centered. Yeah. But my our old um people don't people haven't made these days with reels. Oh, I know, but but our our old I don't know if Bob ever told you to because he was repping you for a little bit. Yeah, for a little bit, yeah, yeah. So those first probably when Chris Rick would got that CD, Bob told me, in all seriousness, make a hundred demo CDs and bring them to GDC. And I'd be like a hundred. He's like, yes, a hundred. And then but just hand them out. And I had to I had like a uh a whole rolling suitcase. Like a roll, yeah, like a rolling suitcase because it's so many CDs. And I made a hundred and I had to burn each one by hand. Oh, yeah. And then put the sticker on label DJ cards. And if the label went on crooked or there was like a cat hair that fell and it got underneath, you gotta just you can't take it off. You gotta throw that whole thing out. It was going to fries buying spindles of CDs.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

For a while there, I was I was doing demos in DVD cases. So the bigger artwork and everything, and it was just a little different than your you know, your CD jewel case. Yeah, but yeah, people these days, closers these days all the money to do that. You're all the money, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

I was on a budget back then. Jeez, uh uh but Chris Rickwood, yeah, he still had one. And um that's funny. I'm I'm kind of dying to listen to it, and also I sort of don't want to.

SPEAKER_04 23:03

I do I I I found old, I mean, we are way off topic here. Um uh I found old tracks on an old drive, and I'm like, I can't believe I considered this. I mean, there was stuff back in '99 and 2000 I had written that 99. Somebody's gonna hear 1999 and be like, you old. Um that I sent to Media Ventures back then. It was Media Ventures. And I listened to it, I'm like, no wonder they didn't get back to me. Um to my to my ears today, I mean, back then I thought it was good, I think, for the production value that we were were allowed to have, not allowed to have, but could afford in home studios. You know, I thought the production value was worthy of that time, but I listened to it now, I'm like, this doesn't hold up to you know anything that I was hearing from anybody from Medea Ventures. So I can understand why, you know, whether the music was good or not, they want, I would assume they wanted, you know, you know, good production. I don't know. Why wouldn't you? Like, I don't I wouldn't take on an assistant now that couldn't produce a good track, you know. Yeah, yeah. Writing alone, you know, can't won't do it anymore. You have to have the chops as a producer, unfortunately. Um but networking, if you're not writing, you're hunting down film festivals in your area, uh, you're going to said film festivals. Um, you're gonna just strike up conversations at the the the parties or the gatherings before or after these premieres. Um go with the buddy composer, go with you know, go with a friend, go with a girlfriend, whatever. Just if you if you can't do it on your own. I know it's it's for composers going to those things is I never liked it. I I say did you even did you even do that? I did that a few times. No, I and it is so difficult. I mean, we're composers by nature, you know, you love being in within your four walls and just minding your own business and writing and even entering.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

And then it, you know, it was at some festival in LA that I could go to, and the director like invites me to go there. And then um, first of all, just listening to my music to picture around other people, I was horrified. I was like, this composer sucks. I know that feeling, yeah. And it would always feel like it's too loud, or you or I couldn't hear it at all.

SPEAKER_04 25:50

Or what did I what was I thinking there?

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Just like oh my god, imposter syndrome. Yeah, it never ends. It never afterwards when they're you know the kids where you like you'll like line up and you'll like um but I've been to somewhere it was like a QA, but everybody just stands there on up front on the yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:11

And then they pass the microphone.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

I know that's I've been part of plenty of those. I'm already like like swinging. What do I do with my arms? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

Yeah, I I was at a couple of those, I remember one in at a Palm Springs Palm Springs Film Festival. And you know, first like when I back then, I don't know if I'm different now. I I I would assume I I am different, uh, as in how I approach scores and why I write certain things. But back then I just really wanted to, you know, I would support the film and I would try to have the film sound unique, but I wouldn't overthink of how I did it. You know, I would just be like, oh, that sounds cool for this film. Well, that's a great sound, or that sound is perfect for this character. Um so I I wouldn't think too much of it, other than, oh, that's cool and that fits. So when we're doing the the these QA, you know, under the screen with passing the mic and everything, and people would ask me about the music, or what were you thinking here? Or, you know, what was behind? I'm like, I feel stupid because I really don't have an answer. I'm like, well, I thought it felt cool.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Or you know, it's like I was there behind my desk, pulling my hair out, like not understanding what this scene needs, and then doing something, and and it like I'm like, hey, that doesn't suck. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 27:35

So what gets me about that is that I also see other people talk about their scores in QA's or so, and they've got these eloquent answers of you know why they've done specific things. And I'm like, is that an afterthought? Did they put that together after the fact?

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Or I'm sure some people do, because I do the same thing now. So I've been guilty of that, but nothing.

SPEAKER_04 27:58

Well, yeah, yeah. I remember doing like a not a Q ⁇ A, but I did a video for my Green Lantern score, uh, the animated uh film, and the chord progression, I don't even remember the chord progression, but it was the character's the character's story is starts, you know, starts low, minor key, goes up, the story art goes up, major key.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

You know, like like I sort of major lift then minor fall.

SPEAKER_04 28:26

But I don't remember the exact chord, but I was I was like, you know what, this chord progression matches the art of this the main character. And I was like, that's a great way to talk about the the theme, but that's not how I approached it.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

I know, and like half the people in the audience would be like, ooh, that's smart. And if there's any composers, they just roll their eyes like I used to when uh so I went to school for composition um at at UCLA. You did? And uh yeah. Pass? I'm just kidding. I I did. Um oh did you say pass? Yeah, did you pass? Uh okay, okay. Well that explains a lot. Uh and we would be, you know, like dissecting like like Bach chorrals, right, right. The voice leading, you know, and then and then like having to sketch out like okay, what chord is this? Like, oh, that goes like one to two to five to six, to seven, to five, to one again, and and then you got into all the um like the four of five chord, and then right, right, right, subdominant and all that. And uh, and then I remember just thinking, like, okay, this is interesting, but this is this isn't how anybody composes, it can't be because because that I then I was feeling really dumb. Like, that's not how I compose at all. And I kind of raised my hand, I'm like, do you think that they know whoever? And maybe Bach thought of it like that because he was very mathematical, yeah, yeah. But like, do you think you know Mozart or Beethoven or you know, Schubert or whoever is it? Do you think they were actually I don't know. Go ahead. Do you think I went to UCLA Kevin? Oh, right. Sorry, LA school. Um, so were they thinking about the the analytical part of it, yeah. Uh to or are we just doing that analyzing it, thinking that but my professor's there, of course, because uh they're like, oh, absolutely they are. And I felt like such an imposter again, and I felt so stupid, and and then I was trying to change how I wrote by doing that, and you lost all feelings, and then yeah, and I mean it comes up with some some interesting ideas sometimes, like chords that lay outside of what you might have read, right? And then it's like, oh, that's actually kind of cool. But the other day I was uh there was some video, I can't even remember what game it was, but something that I wrote music for, and then someone was talking about some of the music from it and was uh breaking it down, like doing like a deep dive into some of it, and it's like, oh you see what's so interesting here is this is like a like the the blah blah blah, and then and talking about and then he he puts in that you know the raised ninth, and it and I'm just I'm like first of all that raised ninth, probably uh wrong medi note I accidentally uh but you I never thought of it like that, and I'm like I had no idea that it was in like oh, and they were like, oh, and you know, then it goes into this mode, and I'm like, I did like yeah, it's so easy to analyze it after the fact and think that the composer was doing that either on purpose or because of that.

SPEAKER_04 31:57

Like I think like when when you have those tools in your head, yes, I think it helps with coming up with different ideas and different ways to you know to harmonize a melody. Um but in the end, I'm only doing that to make it sound good or different. I'm not doing it because those are the rules, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah, the only time I I I turn to theory now is if especially in games and if the music has to loop and if I Oh to get back to the modulating key, you know, if you start in D minor, um, which everything does, uh it has to end in a way that it can go back to the going back to D minor makes sense. So secondary dominant or whatever. I mean, I try to get back to just the root, yeah. Um you just do some modulation and then I know, but if if it's a long cue, and especially uh like on like the Harry Potter score that I did, I tried to get all fancy and and I was modulating all over the place, and then I'm like, oh my god, I'm in like whatever key, and I have to get back to this, and like nothing sounds good. So I then I kind of dusted off the cobwebs in my theory, yeah. And and kind of like figured it the harmonic moment mathematically almost to get back, and then um and it you know, I had to finesse it a little so it sounded modern.

SPEAKER_04 33:31

Right. Yeah, yeah, those are the I mean those are the times when the when the theory you know definitely comes in handy. Um yeah, and that that with regardless of looping, like sometimes that happens in well, I know with with collaborating on film uh with cues, like one composer will have a cue that is after a cue you're writing, and they say you started a cue while they started the same, you know, the queue after your cue, and uh you find out that you've written in different keys. So you have to figure out a way either you one of you is rewrite your cues, but if they're so far along, you've got to figure out how figure it, you've had to figure out how to get to the next cue's key.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Well, if it you're still in MIDI, why can't you just modulate it in MIDI? You can't then you can just be a good one.

SPEAKER_04 34:26

You can, but I mean sometimes you you write in keys because they sound like I know.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Whenever I have to like it never sounds the same. Yeah, sometimes I've been writing something and then I've got choir coming in, and I'm like, ooh, did that melody? Those sopranos are a little too high, and I know like an octave, it's not gonna sound sound awful. You're like, oh, I could I could use the harmony here, but it's not as it's not good. I really want them to be here. And I will just take I'll just control A and just like slide my entire piece down a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

Oh, okay, yeah. Um that doesn't always work with no separator and then you play and then um and then I know it's too bright all of a sudden. Hey, because the computer's I'm gonna go fix that. I'll be right back. Alright, I'll keep talking.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

No, you don't have to. I'm gonna What?

SPEAKER_00 35:19

No, I'm gonna lose my train of thought.

SPEAKER_03 35:20

Oh, I was gonna stop the record and we'll I'll edit it right back in.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

So Alright, alright.

SPEAKER_03 35:27

I can pause the record.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 35:30

Nope, skip. I mean, I had no idea if this is recording time the last 35 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Okay. Um Well, I know you said you were gonna pause and go do that, and then as I suspected, I completely what we were talking about.

SPEAKER_04 35:46

Well, you're talking about selecting all your MIDI, and I said that doesn't always work because if you select the percussion track or something that's a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Yeah, it's annoying. But then but yeah, then you'll have things like like uh-oh, the violin or the viola's not in range anymore. Now it goes now its low note is a is a B flat or something on top of it. Um so you have to go in and actually rewrite and then read so yeah, sometimes it's just not worth it, and then like ah the choir here.

SPEAKER_04 36:20

All right, so back to the network. Back to the what are you doing? Uh there will be tangents. Um what what else to do when you're not right? I mean, like, try to make as many relationships as you can.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Every job all about is relationships. All right. So how did you get well? I know you were an assistant for a while before you got your own stuff.

SPEAKER_04 36:48

Yeah, and it I was getting I was an assistant while I was doing my own stuff too. Okay, so how did you get your first paid gig in by myself? It was video games. It was uh oh man, this this is it was it's relationships. Like I don't even it wasn't it this was back in I'm definitely dating. You want another ice cue? Yeah, they're on the in the cooler or on the yeah. You can move the mic, I'll still talk. Okay, um this was they're frozen in there. Just hit it. There you go. Um, I'll take two or three if you can. I don't want you touching them. Where'd it go? On the floor? Oh, just take it. How many are left?

SPEAKER_00 37:42

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

One, two. Oh that's it. All right. Well, I gotta get up and make it. Um but anyway, I'll I'll do it after I tell the story. So anyway, how I got my first gig, which was um Unreal Tournament something, 2003? Oh, I forgot you worked on that. It was with Epic Games. All right, so I found this artist online. Uh his name was his name, his name was Steve Garofalo. I didn't know at the time that he worked for Epic Games, he was one of their artists. Um but anyway, I loved his artwork. So I said, hey, you know, it would be great to collab on something if you if you you know ever have anything that needs music. So I've said I sent him a bunch of stuff, and I forgot how I sent it to him because I don't think we had MP3s to send. Or maybe we did. God, I don't know. Anyway, so he liked he we had a mutual respect for each other's work, and I think I sent him a C D. The artist? The artist, yeah, sent him a C D. Uh this is when I was living on the East Coast in in Jersey. Um so he like a graphic artist.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

You're not talking like musical no no no no art.

SPEAKER_04 39:09

He worked at Epic Games as as a uh um uh like background map designer or something, I forget exactly. Yeah, concept artist maybe. Um he had really great artwork. Um I actually should check to see what he's up to. Um I haven't anyway. Uh so I got him a CD. I didn't know he worked for Epic Games at the time, or maybe I did, I don't know. But anyway, I struck up a relationship with him. We talked online, however the method was that we chatted, I forget, maybe it was AOL instant messenger. Um, but he had my CD, he liked it, and one day he just placed my C D on Cliff's Cliff Blazinski's desk, and he told me that. I'm like, get out of here, you didn't have to do that. It's awesome. I forget my reaction, but I was just like, wow, that's great. Nothing came like I wasn't expecting anything to come of it, I just thought that it was awesome that he did that. Yeah, so um, so the uh uh a couple years, maybe a year went by, and I stuck kept on talking to Steve, and um then I got the assistant job out here in LA in 2001. I moved out here, um, and just one day I'm laying in bed, Tracy's getting ready for work, my wife, um, and our phone rings. She picks up and she hands me the phone. She goes, It's Cliff Blasinski. And I'm like, shut the fuck up. I'm like, someone's playing a joke on me. This is like what back. Did she know who that was? No. She didn't know who it was. So I'm like, it's gotta be one of my buddies just playing a joke on me. Um, so uh I picked up the phone and he's like, you know, he introduced himself. I was like, holy shit. So it was him. So like I had to wake up real quick because I was, you know, all groggy. And uh he goes, hey Kevin, he goes, uh Steve, Steve, put my put your CD on my desk and I checked it out. Um, we'd love to have you work on the the next Unreal tournament in the series. I was next Unreal, yeah, next game in the series of Unreal Tournament. I was like, okay. And then he goes, What do you charge? I was I was like, oh my god. Like I'm like I'll give you $500, Cliff. Oh, what you pay me? Um, I I didn't have an agent. I didn't have an agent back then. I I only worked for the other composer, so I never got paid for my own work directly. So I had no idea. What'd you tell him? I forget.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

You don't remember how much you made.

SPEAKER_04 41:49

It was low.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Well, you I mean it was I don't think I told him then.

SPEAKER_04 41:53

I think I said I'd call them back. I think it was 600 a minute. And that was that's low. Back then. For me, I think that was maybe it was maybe it wasn't six. I think six is what I got when I asked for more on the next game. It was low. Low of what people were making back then for games. But I didn't want to be greedy, you know? I wanted the job.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Yeah, well, you had that job and all the previous ones before I ever had a job.

SPEAKER_04 42:23

What do you mean all the previous ones? Well, whatever, all the stuff. Yeah. Oh, yeah, with Epic. I had a you had a good uh run with Epic. I did the 2003 Unreal Tournament 2004, then I did Unreal Championship, the Leandri conflict, and then uh I forget what I did after that. And then shortly after that was I heard they were having another game coming up, and it was Gears of War, and I wasn't their first selection for it. I because I mean I thought I built up, you know, everybody says relationships, relationships, and I was kind of pissed off that didn't even even entertain that idea of me pitching for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

Um oh man, you know what? We well, this can be a record of it, so if we ever watch this again, we can remember. But I'm see, I'm thinking of like all kinds of stuff that that I want to talk about now that you bring up, but then we just go off on tangents again. And uh, but let's remember or keep a keep a note in your mind.

SPEAKER_04 43:31

When I when I go through the edit, okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

But I would love to talk about, yeah, like because relationships are everything. Like you're never gonna get a gig without a relationship, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Um but what I've noticed, and I'm way more in the game world than film or TV.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Uh so I can I'm only speaking for games. But I feel like yes, relationships are everything, and when you find Those and they keep hiring you, you know, that that is huge gold.

SPEAKER_04 44:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

But I've had a number of projects where I worked with the same people for a long time. And they just and and like like I think really good scores, like they were happy with them, and you know, would get good reviews online, everything, and you think, um, like wow, I'm gonna like I can't wait to see what we're doing next. Right. And then the next thing comes up, and then they just entertain somebody else. Yeah, but so let's not talk about that.

SPEAKER_04 44:36

Let's not talk about that now.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

But I do want to talk about it at some point.

SPEAKER_04 44:39

Okay, yeah, that that'll be uh the next question would be how often are we doing this? Is it gonna be twice a month? Once a month?

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Uh gosh, in my head, I was like, once a week? Is this like a Thursday thing? Oh no, it doesn't have to be. No, it doesn't. I mean, I think uh but I would say at least twice a month. Twice a month.

SPEAKER_04 45:06

Yeah. Thursdays are good, but Thursdays are tough because if we're enjoying a cocktail or two, it's not gonna make my Friday morning workouts feel any any better. They already suck as it is. Um maybe Wednesday nights.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Well, you know what? You're gonna have to think about your priorities.

SPEAKER_04 45:28

I'm sorry, staying alive is a priority. I'm gonna send myself a note here about next uh conversation. So uh what what would we call that topic? Um uh just like maintaining relationships or relationships that go south or soured or not even soured because you've like I don't know, for me I'm just like when you don't get gigs, even though you have established a great relationship with the company. That's a good one.

unknown 46:02

Topic.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Okay, well, my brains are like so that blurry skin.

SPEAKER_04 46:09

Is that bothering you? It does. It's like a huge moving boca effect. Is it making you nauseous? A little bit. Get the hell out of here. Do you want me to turn it off?

SPEAKER_00 46:21

I don't know, because it's like everything else is sharp, and then that's blurry, but it's moving.

SPEAKER_04 46:24

Can I just tell you that's been on like that for the last 45 minutes and you're gonna be able to do that?

SPEAKER_00 46:28

I know, but I've I've not been I've been secretly, I've been silently suffering, and I just finally thought I would vocalize it.

SPEAKER_04 46:34

Now you know how I feel sitting next to you. Um that's my studio setup behind the camera for those who are watching. Um oh my he doesn't like my screensaver.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

God, and then like I mean, how many headshots did you take to to like cycle through? What I've seen at least 47 headshots.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

Oh, you're funny. You're funny. That's funny.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Uh got the fall uh I've got my yeah, the fall uh pumpkin spice uh scarf. I know there's the the whole like autumn leaves background, white sweater.

SPEAKER_04 47:12

Yeah. Got my Uggs on. Um I feel like we're letting this guy hang here. We're not like really.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

I mean, I think we have, I think we have. I mean he's getting a lot of info, and uh, you know, you get what you pay for. He's not paying for anything. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 47:29

Um I I think also um there there's always um not always, but I remember making contact with people who were, you know, in the indie film community. Um that was through social media, but they're sometimes uh I don't know if they exist anymore, but there are a lot of indie film sites where there are, you know, I don't know, what do you call do you call them message boards anymore? Or um ask your sons. Ask my sons.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

They don't dude, they are so um I don't know. Oh, but but wait a minute. No, I want to talk about my origin story. You talked about yours.

SPEAKER_04 48:19

Nobody asked you. Can I just finish this one thought and then you can go? Okay, I'm gonna take a poll. No, we'll um hey, that looks like a mixer with a lot of knobs. Anyway, um I I took part in conversations in these message boards or these sites that were, you know, that I I don't know what to call them message message boards. Right? Uh yeah. I mean, yes. Yeah, anyway. And you know, you just put yourself out there. Have you have to have material too. I mean, when you're networking, you have to have something to back up your talk.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

Yeah, but you know what? This just feels like also kind of old-fashioned advice because back then there were literally less people online and less composers that wanted to work in whatever medium. Yeah, that dude.

SPEAKER_04 49:20

You think there was less when we were because the technology is allowing so many more games.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

I mean, especially in games, like the whole everything about games has changed, and the way that that I got in would never happen now. Oh, me neither. Um but that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 49:38

It's different now, but but we can only draw on how we I mean, we can we can relate it somewhat close to the the the environment today, but we're not experiencing that. So them asking us advice is you know, I I guess the advice would be the same, but I think it would just be more difficult at at this level of social media and the amount of people interacting. It's like the the the waters have gotten it is compounded over the years. And I don't know, I uh I I think you hear more now with technology, there is so much talent out there.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

Like there is, but also the point of entry is so much I mean just to start producing quality work at home, the point of entry is so much easier and so much uh cheaper.

SPEAKER_04 50:38

Yes, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

And yeah, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 50:45

It's different now, it's terrible. But I mean, I think I mean I think what's gonna what is going to get somebody in the door now, the way I see the industry is 100% uniqueness. Like we I think when we were coming up, um or when we started writing, we were emulating composers we loved.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Well, everybody does. No, I started. I know, I know. And there's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_04 51:16

Right. And when you're called to do something for a project, whether it be a film or even even to this day, a film or a video game, a lot of times they want you to sound like somebody. If they can't get that somebody, they ask you to sound like somebody.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

I how long ago was Batman Begins? That was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_04 51:38

Like the movie James Eden Howard and Hans Zimmer?

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Yeah. Uh a long time ago. I mean, long time, but that was like the bar, and I'm sure you got asked to replicate all the time. Yeah, yeah, dude. So recently, I was pitching on something, and part of the style guide was Batman Begins. I was like, oh my god. Still, we like I there's no escaping it.

SPEAKER_04 52:07

Like, I mean, honestly, I think Zimmer is uh is referenced a lot because a lot of the times he is setting the bar. Well, he's the tastemaker, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Yeah, I mean, it's and and love him or not, he like he definitely he creates a sound. Oh, without an and somehow, I mean, whether it's because that sound was so awesome or because it's associated with a movie that everybody loves, but it's a combination of both, probably. But that just becomes like the latest thing, and it's every time I get a style guide for something, more than half of the time, there's some latest Zimmer thing in there, and I'm like, And you can't, and it'll never be how he can how he and his team can produce it, and uh it's not genuine, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:03

Yeah, and if you try to push, I've gotten blowback on this before. I'm like, on a film I did, they wanted a Zimmerist type of score, and I'm like, listen, do you want this score to be do you want your movie to be unique and or just because I I I said the movie is is unique. It was an action film, but it was a great story, and I'm like, I don't want to do Zimmer. I'm like, I think well, because one, I can't do Zimmer, I can't do him good. I'm just I just I just I just it's just not my my way of writing.

SPEAKER_00 53:47

So um I tried to talk to him. I mean, he's known that since you sent a CD to media pictures.

SPEAKER_04 53:56

Um anyway, um so you know, so I was talking him sort of introducing another idea to him so it wouldn't sound so ripoff-ish. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Dude, you know what a great idea would be in that situation and be like, you haven't heard his score to whatever, like you know, whatever, some even make it up like, oh, he's doing the new, like right, like what whatever, and be like, This is what I was at the scoring session, this is the new Zimmer sound that everybody's gonna be in love with. You're gonna have it. You're gonna be you're gonna have it before Zimmer has it, and he's gonna be accused of copying me. Oh shoot, copyrighted, nobody else could do that.

SPEAKER_04 54:41

That's funny. Um, but yeah, I mean, like, I know I was I always used to get it not offended, but like kind of pissed off. I'm like, I don't want to sound like that. Like, I like I am trying to develop me, you know. I was very um, I wouldn't say it's ego. I was, I was just I was trying to make a sound for myself to do something that I love doing, and I didn't want to constantly have to sound like somebody else. And I think that was mainly one of the reasons why when I first started out, I really didn't want to jump on a uh a team of composers to work for a A-lister. Like I did I wanted to, and you know, in hindsight, this is could be a topic for a whole other episode.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

In hindsight, that was so stupid. Well, well, yeah, I mean, in a way could be the next uh Harry Gregson Williams, John Powell, Lauren Balf.

SPEAKER_04 55:38

You never know. You never know. Because when I when I teamed up with Lauren Balf and his team, it's one of the best experiences of I've had with working with other composers.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Yeah, like there's something about that obstacle course over there that I think I mean I've heard all the things.

SPEAKER_04 55:56

You heard so many different stories, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

It can kill you, turn grind you into dust, or make you come or make you like rich beyond your successful. I've had assistants before. Neither of us do currently.

SPEAKER_04 56:12

No.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

Um I I know from I've had three assistants in the in the past. Not all at once, like all it's just one three different times. And I am not a good boss. I'm not a good manager, I'm not a good I'm too nice. That I mean, I know it sounds like a joke, but that's that's my problem.

SPEAKER_04 56:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Um I because I know what it's like to get like feedback where it's like, this is horrible. I mean, no, I I actually don't know what that's like. But but I know getting too much.

SPEAKER_04 56:53

We got it, we got it the first time you said it, don't worry.

SPEAKER_00 56:56

Um but I just I didn't want to be because I know not that I know honestly, not that I know what it's like to get like like really like harsh feedback, but I know how personal music is, and you're you're just you're putting your your entire being out there and you're loving what you're writing. Yeah, and of course you're loving what you're writing, or um but I would get tracks that I just didn't like, right? And I would try like with with kid gloves to to fix things, yeah, yeah. And that just doesn't work, and it got to a point where I would feel I would feel too I don't know, just too too bad to to give feedback on something and and even but it's just so crazy because first of all, your assistant's not gonna get better if they think you're right, that's how I'm already amazing. Yeah, and then you know, and and I only use somebody to to write for me if I was like really, really in the weeds. Right. Um, I mean I I love just writing music, and I just I'm pitching for something right now, and they asked me, like, like, oh, so you know, when we're working with you, who else are we working with? Like, we just want to know. Oh, right, yeah. I was like, Well, it's a common practice, and uh they're like, you don't have anybody writing writers, like there's no assistance, or yeah, your team, and and I was like, is this a good thing or a bad thing? Like in TV, I think it or film even it would be a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 58:39

A lot of things because you're questioning can he get this done?

SPEAKER_00 58:42

Yeah, but in games they they kind of like you to schedule is a little yeah, well, schedule's way easier usually. But when I I said, no, no, no, everything I do, everything you get is gonna be from me. Yeah, and they were just like, whoa. We have them for ourselves. Um holy moly. I know. You did lost your train of thought. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:08

We were talking about being nice to assistants.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

Oh, oh yeah, right. So I feel like I've been too nice. And even when I see something horrible, I'm obviously we're not naming names on anything, but I had one of my assistants, um, he had unbeknownst to me on we'll say it's Thursday, I don't know, but like Thursday evening after dinner, he's like, Oh, this is when I play, this is when I go online and play like Call of Duty with my friends or something, and it just happened that I was in the shit. Right. And I needed some help. Right. And this is not unusual. I mean, anybody that's watching this and wants to be a composer, there's no, I mean, there's no like there's like a nine to five job that I know some composers that do that and quite successfully, actually. And they they're just like, no, no, no, this is my work time, and this is my me time, my family time, my whatever, my not work time. And I totally respect that. It's actually not something that I want to do because I might take breaks during the day, I'm just not feeling it, and I've worked after after working and for so long. You I know if I'm not feeling it, I should just walk away and do something else. Right. Um, because this is a waste of time, and I could do a million other things. Uh, but you know, your your assistants there like, and this guy was was full time. Oh, um, it wasn't hourly, he was he was full time, and so I called him and I'm like, hey, I need you to to do this, and he's like, Ooh, I've got you know call of duty night with my friends tonight, and I let him do it. I was so pissed. Shame on you. I was so pissed, but I didn't him or your such I didn't both. Yeah. I mean him first, me later. Right, right. Um, but that he felt like I was like, I have been doing this whole like mentorship, you know, or it's not well part mentorship, but but but like I am I am paying money monthly as a full-time assistant, and when I need help, like I need help, I would not have called if I didn't need help. Right. And for me to to like take that like oh, okay, and and like I was seething, but it was like, all right, well, maybe like how long does it go? I don't know, it could go all night. Okay, well, anyways, if you're not too tired afterwards, maybe you could do this. And I still look back on that, I'm like, this is this is I think where I lost him, where where he probably maybe lost respect for me in a way that I wasn't like, dude, you gotta do this. Like we are on fire right now. Yeah, you gotta do this, or or tomorrow, like don't bother calling me. Like, I need help now. Right. Like, play your play games tomorrow, or just next week, or whatever. That is not the end of the world. Right now, it feels like end of the world for my project. Right. Uh, but I I let him off, and I've um I had one more assistant and and I just did him hourly because I'm like, I can't well you'll learn.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:46

I mean, like I remember uh my oh actually it was my first assistant, and it was I was very it what he was by he's he was brought on to do additional music, and he uh at one point I gave him something to do, and it wasn't a m a request of mine, it was a request of the producer, but it was his cue. So I I relayed the message to him, and he sort of like bitched and moaned. Not at me, but at the notes from the producer, right, but still towards you, right? So what I told him was I was like, listen, I know we're both on the receiving end of that note, but for your future, you should see me as the producer.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:45

Don't there's a very famous saying that's very true, shit rolls downhill.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:51

Well, right, but but that, but but I wanted him to understand that don't get into the habit of being disgruntled about notes. Yeah, like don't just because you're comfortable with me, don't bitch to me, because I s I'm still employing you and I still need you. So if you bitch to me, even though I think I think the same way about the notes, like this is really uncalled for, these notes are dumb, but don't feel too comfortable to bitch to me. See me as a producer because when you work for somebody, a director, producer, or game developer, you you don't want to be reacting like that to them.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:31

So yeah, no, that you know, complaining is that the city is a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:35

Like the guy that would would that guy who wanted to play Call of Duty with his friends say that to a film producer or a game developer? No, of course not. Right, so exactly. So that I mean, like I said, we learn and we we we uh as as you know people employers, you know, you sort of like have to instill the fact, and I'm uh you know, like it's the whole career is a learning experience. And like I don't I don't think anybody at no matter what level they're at, you might feel comfortable and you might think you know everything, but I I still think there's so much to learn with relationships and people, no matter what level you're at.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

Yeah, you know, of course, and and you know, and I whenever I find myself getting upset about something work-wise, like like too many notes, or just like communication that's that's just not great, and you know, they ask for something and you do it, and and they're like, uh no, I didn't mean that. This is like, oh god, that's not what you said. And and you know, at the end of the day, like I'm writing music for entertainment. This is and for a project that is not yours, yeah, it's not mine, but also it's like like this is super. fun this is not I'm not saving lives with this right yeah it shouldn't be that serious even though there are hundreds and hundreds of uh you know within companies of of like other humans with jobs at stake and so it it is serious in a way and and also you know like at least for like triple A games and stuff there's I mean I don't even know how many millions of dollars if we're getting into oh yeah yeah for triple A games yeah a lot of million dollars but I mean yeah for sure but I yeah like you know hundreds of millions of dollars it's insane um and so there is that that pressure but I know at the end it's like I always have to just remind myself like this is this is music for games man well well yeah I mean it it's still important to you and it's still important to them but it's like you can't hold on to the ego at all you just have to you have to you have to be proud of what you write um like I listen we can go on forever and that's what we do when we do hang out but people aren't gonna want to watch us for more than it's been an hour and 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:20

Oh we should wrap it up so we're gonna and I'm sure I'm so sorry we didn't answer us we we answered what we could and and and if he replies to me and saying well you missed this you didn't answer that and I'll be fine with that I'll I'll I'll set up a zoom with him or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:36

Oh geez you're you're I do that I still I'm very generous with your time I I'm not uh so much I I really when I get a an email say like asking me what are you doing?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:49

Sorry my son just texted me about something Mike is it time to stand? No not yet although my legs are cramping up one second I gotta answer my son. What do you mean man I didn't this is an edit point just what were we talking about?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:04

Yeah I know see this is how bad it's late at night too I know but that's see which son was it Quentin Quintin just ruins the whole podcast. Thanks Quentin yeah thanks a lot um what were we saying I don't know about um we're we're talking about wrapping it up okay we're gonna wrap this up yeah okay before we do I want to um you can thank our sponsors you can edit this out oh scotch whiskey and I'm just kidding um oh what if we could get a few sponsors that'd be great I I would like to wink wink heavy you hear me you hear that Ari Neil and Dave um uh no but I would I mean we could do this afterwards too but I've just been I will I'm sure I'll forget I'm thinking of future topics uh I still want to do my origin story oh right right right yeah that that's gonna be like write it down I'll reply to the email that Chris's origin story starts with stalking me Velasco begins it's Velasco begins Chris's origin uh and then I think we should talk about maybe this has never happened to you but projects that you've left have you ever left a project uh yes yeah I've left two projects uh we've left and we can talk about favorite even though I hate that question I know they're all f but that'll be I can talk about favorites for an hour yeah uh so that's I think we have plenty plenty of episodes ahead of us of topics um yeah so if you have now that we're ending this if you stuck with us this long if you have any questions and stuff you want answered for us to talk about leave them in the comments and we'll touch on them for like three minutes and go off on tangents and not answer them.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:11

But yeah so this is the podcast this is what it's gonna be like we have yet to name it so we're gonna be putting this up on YouTube um hopefully with a name by the time it goes up um so yeah that's it for now.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:26

All right thanks for listening that was good